I’ve just come out of a fairly quick skype call with Jen/Injenuity… I seem to have been in contact with her quite a bit recently. In the chat she put forward a few interesting questions, one stood out to me in particular. It brought up something I surprisingly hadn’t thought about before: “Does it seem strange to you to associate with a bunch of adults?” Strangely, the answer is no. When I think about it and put it in context, I realize that yes, it is a bit weird, but it still doesn’t bother me, and I don’t see why it should. Just because there is an age gap doesn’t mean that there should be a conversation barrier there too (of course there can be if you want there to be).
One of the other questions she asked which stuck a chord was, now that I think about it not really a question, more of an observation - “and I noticed on your blog that you mentioned you’re the only one of your friends that is interested in this stuff… you really haven’t connected with anyone in your area”. This is sadly very true. Student ed tech types are lone wolfs, we just generally don’t come in packs; I suppose what she was asking here ties in with the previous question. Online I need to be in contact with adults in order to be a part of the networks that I am so fond of because I can’t connect with a lot of other students. This is mainly due to the fact that it is outside of what the average student normally does online. The “you really haven’t connected with anyone in your area” part sort of answers the question that she asked right at the start of the chat “why are you up so late” (it was almost midnight at the time… it’s now almost 1:30am). I’m up so late because I really can’t seem to find many people in Scotland who are interested in this, especially people my age. So, if I want to actively converse, I have to be around when all the Americans are out to play. I guess I’m a wannabe American from the hours of 11 pm till whatever am. Actually, that’s a lie, I’m happy being 100% Scottish no matter what the time zone I end up living in.
The main thought that is running through my head when I look back over all these questions is, where do we draw the line? Or even, do we draw a line? What I mean in this respect is if we were to achieve our goal, if we were to have technology (in particular web 2.0 tools) widely used within education then would teachers actually welcome their students to contact them? And converse in the way I do with the adults and teachers I am connected with over my twitter network and similar things online. The reason I find this a difficult question to answer is that although in a traditional school environment this type of communication (especially that outside of the school walls) is discouraged (at least on a relatively large scale) we are proposing change to this system, and a big change at that. Does this mean that the principles associated with the current system should be changed? Or I should probably say, adapted? Should the door be left closed to student - teacher communication both in and out of school? Should it be left open? Or should there be some sort of compromise?
Personally I really can’t answer this. It may be because I’m not a teacher, and I don’t really know how I’d feel about the students in my class contacting me, and hanging around in the places on the web I have found so sacred at times. And let’s face it, there’s always going to be at least that 1 student sitting in that class that gets on your nerves that bit more than the rest of them… does this mean they would do the same within your own personal networks? And should all this mean that a line needs to be drawn somewhere with the use of these tools (at least in the classroom)?
So, back to Jen’s original question - no I really don’t mind networking and communicating with adults and teachers. It can spark up a good conversation from time to time (one which can be difficult to have with many teenagers my age), besides, it also proves that teachers actually don’t live in school. The question I’m now left wondering about though is this: would you be comfortable sharing your networks if there were more of us around? Because if/when classes of students become connected with you it may not necessarily be for the same reasons I connect with you. It would be a part of their classroom learning, and students don’t always participate in the way they should. In saying that though, I’m assuming you were comfortable with it in the first place...
Here’s the audio! - Call to Jen
The Bass Player
- draw the line by alfarman on Flickr
I guess there’s always the “block” button for those annoying students. Just kidding.
Does it depend on what’s discussed?
With the way things are here, where I’m at, I can’t have a student alone in my room with the door closed, or give one a ride home. Does that make it okay to IM them? Do logs count as chaperonage?
It’s a sticky question you’ve got here - I don’t think there’s an easy answer any more than there are to the meatspace type of questions.
You do pose interesting questions, ones that I haven’t thought of in detail (being a teacher of 2-5 graders). Most of my students aren’t even involved in “social networks” on the internet yet.
I do believe that in the near future, this will become an issue to deal with in our school systems.
I would invite students to become part of my professional learning network. Having students involved gives us as the teacher a fresh and younger point of view. You are part of my learning network. I enjoy every time I look in my aggregator to see a fresh post on Students 2.0.
The Student Voice is one that I think everyone can learn from.
So if you are so interested in American culture, is there a chance you could do an exchange program here?
What would concern you? Is it the fact that you wouldn’t trust your teenage child? or that your child is up at 1:30 in the morning?
I think it is neither. This is why we are eventually going to run into problems with these type of situations. It’s somewhat unfortunate for adults that would really like to share in a learning network with people of all ages without constraint.
It all comes down to informing children at a young age about appropriate actions on the internet. If there is no education, then we can’t expect children to make the right choices.
From the teacher’s point of view, I would welcome interaction from my students, much like the interaction I enjoy with some of the Students 2.0 contributers online, so long as it stayed without appropriate boundaries.
I also have another perspective: as an older blogger, I find that almost everyone I interact with online is younger than I am! Age loses its relevance, to a certain point, online. The playing field is level; only ideas matter.
diane
I was so moved by your post I have continued the discussion on my site. I hope you will weigh in.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts...
You exemplify the postmodern student.
It’s funny how that word “ed tech” bothers me. I don’t think of this world as either educational or technological - any more than I think of sending emails, writing, or making a phone call “educational” or “technological”. I just think of this whole world as explosively powerful for people who want to be able to do things that make a difference somehow (creative, social, political, and sure, educational if that’s your thing), and make that difference with people everywhere.
Yes, we use technology to do it, and yes, we learn whenever we try to do something we want to do that requires some work, but as Jen says in her latest, excellent, post, “Down and Dirty,” it’s all so easy now, we complicate it by calling it “technology” and “web 2.0″. Skype is just a telephone. Twitter is just a notepad. Let’s get on with using them for the purpose of doing cool things (what we teachery types call “project-based learning”).
As for whether it’s okay to network with people who happen to be students? You know what I say, because I just got off a skype call with you in which we planned some potentially amazing things that will do their part to push the envelope. And I talk to you on Skype, Twitter, and other ways all the time.
But for everybody else, I say: Childhood is a modern invention. This interview with psychologist Robert Epstein, author of The Case Against Adolescence, from Psychology Today sums it up well:
As for those teens who aren’t competent enough to be a positive contributor and partner in our networks? We can always block them.
Parting shot: some of you in Students 2.0 have enriched my network far more than most adults. It’s a brave new world, and I don’t have the answers, but I do have enough experience so far to say that I’d be poorer without students in my network.
And anyway, nobody ever asks if it’s okay if preachers and church youth group adult leaders can “cross the line.” Why do we not extend that same trust to teachers? I say we clearly should. Teachers need more than 9 months with any student to really make a difference.
Although, my mind reels with potential conflicts I can see arising in my own community.
It’s good to see the rising generation taking a lead on some issues and dragging us into the 21st century.
A very interesting discussion you have started here. As a teacher, albeit of elementary age students, I have no problem with students contacting me or engaging with me online, but as Jen points out, their parents may not like it, since they may not know me or know of my role and position at school. And, while I agree with Clay that we should be trusting of teachers, the reality of the web is that it can bring the evils of the world, the pretenders and the predators, into your home just as easily as it allows in the friends and trusted adults.
Another, perhaps tangential, issue that has me thinking lately is the question of a teacher’s online persona. I have a FaceBook account, a Flickr, Digg, del.icio.us, Twitter, Blogger account, etc. etc. and in all cases use the same username, mcglaysia (as my name is McGlade and I live in Malaysia; it seemed clever at the time). Now, while I am not trying to hide anything, I still have to pay constant attention to what I post in these various forums because I know that students and parents of my students may see it. If I have had a fun night out and, hypothetically, have a hangover and Twitter about it or update my FaceBook status, many people will see that. While I would like to think of everyone within my sphere being the live-and-let-live type, that is not necessarily the case. Living in a muslim country, for example, there are many parents that might suggest I would be setting a bad example for their children and should not be condoning such behaviour. Furthermore, there might even be students that choose to use information they gather online about teachers against those teachers.
While I have not encountered any such occurrences, it does raise the issue of the potential gap between what is appropriate when you are 37 and married and what is not when you are only 17 and how that can affect the online interactions between teachers and students that are not directly confined to that teacher’s own school and own students.
I am not suggesting that this is a reason to avoid such relationships, but it does mean that, as teachers, we have to act as teachers online. Do you think students have a similar responsibility?
Sean, did you post the audio of our conversation? You are more than welcome to do so. It may help the dialog here.
@Sean: I’d love to hear the conversation with Jen.
@Michael: Your points are interesting. To me, it points above all to parents needing to enter this world too. And also to extend the “you’d never accept a ride from a stranger” to “you’d never accept an invitation to physically meet from an online acquaintance.”
Funny thing is (and I’m not the first to say it), the person at the bus stop on the bottom of my school’s hill is far more positioned to do harm than anybody online.
Another funny thing: I realize I never do video with anybody I Skype with (adults included). It was always simply because I find video conferencing distracting - I don’t want to see a person, I want to hear their brains. But it occurs to me that it’s also a good policy generally, for other reasons.
Two things:
1. There’s an element of respect to be considered here. You wouldn’t sneak up and listen to a conversation between two (or more) people that aren’t talking to you in real life. I don’t hang out by the lockers and eavesdrop. I think my students deserve their space online, so I don’t go prying and generally wait to be asked into their conversations. I expect the same from my students. (Expecting too much?)
2. My online life is a HUGE part of my life, and I will not pull all my own adult conversations in because there are young people in the world. Teachers are not mommies, gurus, or spiritual leaders. That being said, I heartily agree with Clay’s point that childhood is socially constructed. We have baby-fied today’s kids (largely, I think, because the minimum level of literacy required for participation in the economy requires about a million years of institutional schooling, or does it?) They can handle more than we think.
@the original poster: I have found over the years many students who sometimes very comfortable having conversations with adults, and I think there are a variety of reasons, including the desire to have more intellectual conversations. Just like in business, the Web/Internet does level the playing field a bit; whereas before you could only talk to a teacher during class, and now can communicate through an entire 24 hour day, employees can communicate directly with the CEO when 10 years ago, they might not know you had existed.
I somehow think it might be unfair to have the expectation that a teacher is available 24/7 when many schools (in the US, where I’m from) dictate a specific contractual time for teachers (7:30-3:30, let’s say). While some teacher are willing to be online at night to help kids with homework, I’d be careful about setting this as an expectation. I think it’s a great idea, but I’d like to see teachers get compensated for their virtual time, too.
I don’t thing students should expect teachers to be available 24/7 for homework either. But ring me up on skype to shoot the breeze? If you’re a good conversationalist, or a visionary do=er of some sort, I don’t care how old you are. Let’s talk!
I think that Jen brings up a good point. Most younger people are on other sights, like myspace. They want to be able to see a page with pictures so they know who they are talking to. Young people care about image more than people who are older. I think older people care more about the content that images.
Great post!
I’m lucky enough to teach in a school where the top priority of the whole institution is the dynamic, authentic relationship between students and teachers. (When I interviewed, this was one of the first things they talked about. On freshman orientation, this is one of the first things they talk about. Similarly for admissions visits.)
It’s my first year teaching, and wow, can it be challenging. But it’s the relationships that have been the greatest resource to making the four courses I’m teaching (reasonably) successful so far. There’s an undoubtable connection between the informal hallway/hanging-out-in-the-office/going-on-camping-trips interactions and those that happen in the classroom. They feed each other. They’re inseparable parts of a whole.
Having experienced this, I don’t think I could ever bear a form of teaching where my relationship with students was hemmed in by rigid, formal institutional structures. As for online connections: I think drawing a line at online interaction and calling it “off limits” would be just as arbitrary as drawing it at the classroom door.
All relationships need certain boundaries and lines drawn for the sake of the individuals involved. I guess I believe those boundaries ought to be developed *within* the relationship, by exercising judgement in each specific situation.
Mr K. you put forward interesting points. I can see where you’re coming from and I think this is why this type of thing needs to be thought about. The politically correct attitude of society these days makes sticky situations out of even the simplest of things, and this is why it’s not an easy question to answer.
a. woody delauder I am glad you are open to letting students in... this is important. How difficult would you foresee this network building being with students of the age you are teaching?
Jen I realised that at the time, but the question got me thinking about these other issues. It’s not so much interested in American culture, it’s just you guys seem to be a lot more in tune with all of these things we talk about! But now you mention it an American exchange would be cool! Always wondered what it would be like in an American school.
Chris Why do you find them more blurred? I’d be interested to know
Diane I’m glad you consider the playing field to be level, I think this is an important thing to believe with online networking.
Sheryl Thank you very much, I appreciate your kind words.
Bill I am glad you are feeling the change, I am also glad you are enjoying the posts from my fellow students 2.0 and I!
Eric I like your take on things... along with this I think the attitude of the people deciding what the teachers role is should change. Unplugging is always an option!
Charlie I think the idea of appropriate boundaries can be focussed too much on in society (schools in particular) these days. As I said in one of the comments above, political correctness is something I’m not a big fan on - I just think a lot of time is wasted these days with thinking “oh but what will happen if I do this... will this cross the line?”
Melissa Very interesting thoughts, I like them... a lot. “Adults should never ask anything of a student that they would not like for another adult to ask of their own children” - a very good guideline in my opinion
Clay Your insight stuns me sometimes... it really does. We need to talk more.
Michael You put forward a good point, although I’m not sure I’d be for teachers having to manage what they are doing online for the fear of what may happen. It’s just not right in my eyes. I don’t think teachers and students should act as students and teachers... I think this defeats the purpose. As Diane mentioned in her comment “The playing field is level; only ideas matter.”
Taylor Very good point of view. You’re quite right, if teachers can be trusted in the classroom why not on the internet? I don’t think you’re expecting too much there, I think it’s a perfectly reasonable thing to ask! I think you’re right in the sense that you shouldn’t have to pull down your adult conversations just because your students are online, after all they don’t have to read them, and it’s down to them if they do, not you. You shouldn’t be held accountable for anything that comes of a student seeing one of your online conversations.
John You’re quite right, a teacher shouldn’t have to be there online to communicate with their students 24/7 but I think it’s more of a case of they are there when they are there and can communicate if necessary... it shouldn’t be a must.
pheonix You’re right, we shouldn’t have to draw a line, but there always will be consequences from not drawing one...
pepperr Why do you think this is? I agree... young people do probably respond more to visuals etc. Not sure why though, but remember a lot of adults love that sort of stuff too! For starters it’s adults bringing us myspace etc.
kubavb7 How big a factor do you think lack of time is when it comes to a students online activity? do you think it would improve if it was classroom integrated?
3ways As I mentioned above I think that many adults also do the same, but why do you think the majority of young people completely switch off without this type of media integration?
Grizz13 I’m not quite sure what you mean about making sure things are secure.
Spongebobeob What sort of compromise do you suggest?
Anand Thakker Not a problem at all... thanks for responding! It’s great hearing the views from someone in your type of school environment. I’m glad to hear you talking so positively about this type of student - teacher relationship!
Thank you all again for your replies, they have kept me busy over the last while... I’m sorry if some of the replies were a bit rushed, it was difficult catching up with them all in one go!
Sean
Scarily enough well, you wrote the exact same thing I had in my mind except i didn’t have any skype calls.
I’m even in a worse situation than being surrounded by group of adults, I am the ONLY asian among the people i’m interacting with in Twitter and in my Blog (Quatar visited me recently!)
Interacting with adults are extremely discouraged in Korea. When young and old doesn’t know each other and if they meet in the Internet, they can be good friends (even lovers). But by the time they get to know their true age, they get farther from each other.
Also my so called ‘Asian-Confucianism” remnants in my people’s head seems to be contradicting with some white peoples concept according to a few comments on this post: http://tinyurl.com/2jnfcw
Yes, anyways for me online networking is a great experience of ‘cultural diffusion’ (term i learned in history class last year pshh) and especially 3 minute tweet chat w/ u today was memorable.
By the way, after writing this, I don’t feel like having contact with same asians more.. i actually enjoyed talking with white strangers in less than one month of my tweeting.
lets call some native african dudes and talk about huttus and tutsis
If teens don’t interact with responsible adults from all over the globe, how will they learn to be responsible global citizens? By watching YouTube videos? Oh, wait, YouTube is blocked.
There is no privacy online. If someone has sufficient means and motivation, you can be found. It’s a great motivation to live circumspectly. “If you’d have a hard time explaining it to your mom, spouse, boss, the press, or a judge, think twice.”
Without a doubt, I think that teenagers and adults are able to have good conversations. As long as they respects each other. However, some of the teenagers might have found strangeness for communicating with adults. I think that’s actually quite normal. But it doesn’t necessarily means that there should be a line between because the line would be stepped across by these teenagers eventually.(hopefully)