Comments on: Arrogance, perception, and mistakes http://students2oh.org/2007/12/13/arrogance-perception-and-mistakes/ The silent majority speaks up Fri, 05 Sep 2008 21:06:30 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: ccapozzoli http://students2oh.org/2007/12/13/arrogance-perception-and-mistakes/#comment-330 ccapozzoli Fri, 21 Dec 2007 21:39:16 +0000 http://students2oh.org/2007/12/13/arrogance-perception-and-mistakes/#comment-330 Kevin, Keep doing what you are doing. I am so very excited that students are finally seeing that they do have voices to people who care and want to listen. You are on the forefront of something very positive and valuable. I will look to this site to be a model for my students. You are an inspiration to us, educators who actually get it!! It would be nice to have everyone feel the same about students sharing collaborating and learning effectively on their own time, but it will never happen. Skeptics will always be there. Learn from them, the road blocks and doubters will lead you to better triumphs and bigger places. Keep plugging away!! I am enjoying all of the student thoughts, ideas and sharing. Most of my most memorable moments in 20 years of education have happened because of students like you. Thanks!! Kevin,
Keep doing what you are doing. I am so very excited that students are finally seeing that they do have voices to people who care and want to listen. You are on the forefront of something very positive and valuable. I will look to this site to be a model for my students. You are an inspiration to us, educators who actually get it!! It would be nice to have everyone feel the same about students sharing collaborating and learning effectively on their own time, but it will never happen. Skeptics will always be there. Learn from them, the road blocks and doubters will lead you to better triumphs and bigger places. Keep plugging away!! I am enjoying all of the student thoughts, ideas and sharing. Most of my most memorable moments in 20 years of education have happened because of students like you. Thanks!! ]]> By: Have We Really NOT been listening??? | Tech Thoughts By Jen http://students2oh.org/2007/12/13/arrogance-perception-and-mistakes/#comment-280 Have We Really NOT been listening??? | Tech Thoughts By Jen Mon, 17 Dec 2007 02:14:59 +0000 http://students2oh.org/2007/12/13/arrogance-perception-and-mistakes/#comment-280 [...] challenge the Students 2.0 to tell us about those teachers (there has to be more than Clay) who are challenging them, inspiring them, listening to them, encouraging them, and helping them [...] [...] challenge the Students 2.0 to tell us about those teachers (there has to be more than Clay) who are challenging them, inspiring them, listening to them, encouraging them, and helping them [...] ]]> By: a. woody delauder http://students2oh.org/2007/12/13/arrogance-perception-and-mistakes/#comment-258 a. woody delauder Sat, 15 Dec 2007 16:11:34 +0000 http://students2oh.org/2007/12/13/arrogance-perception-and-mistakes/#comment-258 Kevin, Great conversation. Observations, conversations and reflections are powerful data. Scientific polls can and will be skewed. Many commentors have proven your point for you... they still are trying to tell you what your doing wrong. Continue observing, conversing, reflecting and writing. I enjoy. Thank you! Kevin,
Great conversation. Observations, conversations and reflections are powerful data. Scientific polls can and will be skewed. Many commentors have proven your point for you... they still are trying to tell you what your doing wrong. Continue observing, conversing, reflecting and writing. I enjoy. Thank you! ]]> By: Kevin Walter http://students2oh.org/2007/12/13/arrogance-perception-and-mistakes/#comment-257 Kevin Walter Sat, 15 Dec 2007 15:46:58 +0000 http://students2oh.org/2007/12/13/arrogance-perception-and-mistakes/#comment-257 Lindsey: By your definition, my approximation that 85% of students dislike school is not a "sphincter statistic" either. I, too, am basing my conclusions on actual discussions I have with my peers. Bottom line, however, is that it all comes down to our different environments. It's all good. Much love, Hawaiian girl. :-) Lindsey: By your definition, my approximation that 85% of students dislike school is not a “sphincter statistic” either. I, too, am basing my conclusions on actual discussions I have with my peers. Bottom line, however, is that it all comes down to our different environments.

It’s all good. Much love, Hawaiian girl. :-) ]]> By: Clay Burell http://students2oh.org/2007/12/13/arrogance-perception-and-mistakes/#comment-255 Clay Burell Sat, 15 Dec 2007 08:06:34 +0000 http://students2oh.org/2007/12/13/arrogance-perception-and-mistakes/#comment-255 <blockquote>I know why I’m here. I want to change the students. The digital natives and the digital immigrants can continue to be at odds over one another’s methods. But when teachers see the change in their own students, they’ll figure it out.</blockquote> --this is one of the most pregnant passages in the entirety of posts on S2oh for me so far. I hope you all can "show the change" by doing more than talking about it. Sean's video, which all of you put together in a fascinating (and easy) way, is a start in that direction. Whether you take it further is up to you all. As a reader, I can only say that I hope you do.

I know why I’m here. I want to change the students. The digital natives and the digital immigrants can continue to be at odds over one another’s methods. But when teachers see the change in their own students, they’ll figure it out.

–this is one of the most pregnant passages in the entirety of posts on S2oh for me so far.

I hope you all can “show the change” by doing more than talking about it. Sean’s video, which all of you put together in a fascinating (and easy) way, is a start in that direction.

Whether you take it further is up to you all. As a reader, I can only say that I hope you do.

]]> By: Lindsea http://students2oh.org/2007/12/13/arrogance-perception-and-mistakes/#comment-253 Lindsea Sat, 15 Dec 2007 04:21:07 +0000 http://students2oh.org/2007/12/13/arrogance-perception-and-mistakes/#comment-253 Clarification: CLAY hasn't taken all the credit. What I was objecting to was Kevin implying that Clay gets to take all the credit. Clay himself suggested giving props to our own teachers who turned us on to Students 2.0. "I know that most of my classmates generally feel the same way." I know this not from approximation, but from actually asking my friends who go to both public and private. So it's not a just a sphincter statistic. AND THE MOST IMPORTANT THING OF ALL YOU ARE AWESOME, KEVIN, AND I WILL NEVER THROW YOU UNDER THE BUS. Didn't mean to be too harsh. Much love, brah. Clarification:

CLAY hasn’t taken all the credit. What I was objecting to was Kevin implying that Clay gets to take all the credit. Clay himself suggested giving props to our own teachers who turned us on to Students 2.0.

“I know that most of my classmates generally feel the same way.” I know this not from approximation, but from actually asking my friends who go to both public and private. So it’s not a just a sphincter statistic.

AND THE MOST IMPORTANT THING OF ALL

YOU ARE AWESOME, KEVIN, AND I WILL NEVER THROW YOU UNDER THE BUS.

Didn’t mean to be too harsh. Much love, brah.

]]> By: Kevin Walter http://students2oh.org/2007/12/13/arrogance-perception-and-mistakes/#comment-250 Kevin Walter Fri, 14 Dec 2007 20:33:32 +0000 http://students2oh.org/2007/12/13/arrogance-perception-and-mistakes/#comment-250 Lindsey: Thanks for your comment. <a href="http://students2oh.org/2007/12/13/arrogance-perception-and-mistakes/#comment-214" rel="nofollow">As I mentioned</a>, I did pull that statistic out of thin air, and I again apologize for purporting that I had some sort of scientific basis for those figures. It's all based on my worldview, and as you touched on (and as has been discussed at length in our perpetual, internal Skype chat ;-) ), our school situations are very different. You said it yourself, without even realizing it: "I know that most of my classmates generally feel the same way." I'm just taking an extension of how I <strong>think</strong> <em>my</em> classmates feel, and slapping an arbitrary number on it. Perhaps arguing my use of the word "evil" is just a debate over semantics? I don't find school "evil," per se. (You'll notice I was keen not to divulge where I personally stand on school.) However, I do admit that was my weakest paragraph in this article. I knew I would catch some flak for my "teachers are all bad" line. After all, as one educator put it to me: "people don't read emoticons" (like the one I had immediately following that line). I meant that line as an extension of my poorly-worded "statistic" use. "Homework? Tests? Actual work?" think <strong>some</strong> students. My writing style has always been riddled with generalizations and attitude. Perhaps that's something I need to work on. Or maybe that's my "voice"? Who knows... Lindsey: Thanks for your comment. As I mentioned, I did pull that statistic out of thin air, and I again apologize for purporting that I had some sort of scientific basis for those figures. It’s all based on my worldview, and as you touched on (and as has been discussed at length in our perpetual, internal Skype chat ;-) ), our school situations are very different. You said it yourself, without even realizing it: “I know that most of my classmates generally feel the same way.” I’m just taking an extension of how I think my classmates feel, and slapping an arbitrary number on it.

Perhaps arguing my use of the word “evil” is just a debate over semantics? I don’t find school “evil,” per se. (You’ll notice I was keen not to divulge where I personally stand on school.) However, I do admit that was my weakest paragraph in this article.

I knew I would catch some flak for my “teachers are all bad” line. After all, as one educator put it to me: “people don’t read emoticons” (like the one I had immediately following that line). I meant that line as an extension of my poorly-worded “statistic” use. “Homework? Tests? Actual work?” think some students.

My writing style has always been riddled with generalizations and attitude. Perhaps that’s something I need to work on. Or maybe that’s my “voice”? Who knows...

]]> By: Lindsea http://students2oh.org/2007/12/13/arrogance-perception-and-mistakes/#comment-249 Lindsea Fri, 14 Dec 2007 20:11:10 +0000 http://students2oh.org/2007/12/13/arrogance-perception-and-mistakes/#comment-249 Kevin, I respect your opinion. To be honest, though, I disagree with some of your points. First of all, I am your peer, as well as all of the other Students 2.0 kids, and every high school kid in the world (including us crazy Hawaiians). That made clear, the education institution has not been ingrained in me as evil. Though I speak for myself when I say that I love school, I know that most of my classmates generally feel the same way. Certainly they wouldn't use the word "evil" to describe school. But you say that 85% of students think that school is evil. First of all, this number sounds like it may have come from an undisclosed location up your sphincter. And I say that with all the kindness in the world. But really, you say you guessed on that number? Could this be a case of false consensus effect? Maybe it's true that YOU think that school is evil, but you can't just estimate how many kids have the same feelings about school as you and use that as evidence to support your point. It's weak, and I wouldn't have expected that out of you. Though you may think that school is "evil", and be completely justified in that opinion, it is not your place to make judgments about millions of other kids around the world. Another generalization that my spine arched at was "Trust me, [teachers] are all bad." I know that this is a hyperbole, used to shock, but it's completely inappropriate. What about the other teachers that helped get us Students 2.0 together? Clay can't take all the credit. Even some of the other ones, the ones that don't even blog, are not so bad, despite their technological ignorance. Again, speaking for myself, I've only had about 2 or 3 truly bad teachers in my entire career as a student. Maybe I'm just lucky, or maybe it's because I'm private schooled, but that's the truth. It could be that I'm a school lovin', teacher huggin' freak of nature. But you still put words in my mouth. And I will not just stand here and be the silent while you try and tell our readers how "students" think and what "students" feel. These are all things that YOU feel Kevin. Not the 85%. Kevin, I respect your opinion. To be honest, though, I disagree with some of your points.

First of all, I am your peer, as well as all of the other Students 2.0 kids, and every high school kid in the world (including us crazy Hawaiians). That made clear, the education institution has not been ingrained in me as evil. Though I speak for myself when I say that I love school, I know that most of my classmates generally feel the same way. Certainly they wouldn’t use the word “evil” to describe school.

But you say that 85% of students think that school is evil. First of all, this number sounds like it may have come from an undisclosed location up your sphincter. And I say that with all the kindness in the world. But really, you say you guessed on that number? Could this be a case of false consensus effect? Maybe it’s true that YOU think that school is evil, but you can’t just estimate how many kids have the same feelings about school as you and use that as evidence to support your point. It’s weak, and I wouldn’t have expected that out of you. Though you may think that school is “evil”, and be completely justified in that opinion, it is not your place to make judgments about millions of other kids around the world.

Another generalization that my spine arched at was “Trust me, [teachers] are all bad.” I know that this is a hyperbole, used to shock, but it’s completely inappropriate. What about the other teachers that helped get us Students 2.0 together? Clay can’t take all the credit. Even some of the other ones, the ones that don’t even blog, are not so bad, despite their technological ignorance. Again, speaking for myself, I’ve only had about 2 or 3 truly bad teachers in my entire career as a student. Maybe I’m just lucky, or maybe it’s because I’m private schooled, but that’s the truth.

It could be that I’m a school lovin’, teacher huggin’ freak of nature. But you still put words in my mouth. And I will not just stand here and be the silent while you try and tell our readers how “students” think and what “students” feel. These are all things that YOU feel Kevin. Not the 85%.

]]> By: Arthus Erea http://students2oh.org/2007/12/13/arrogance-perception-and-mistakes/#comment-248 Arthus Erea Fri, 14 Dec 2007 20:00:48 +0000 http://students2oh.org/2007/12/13/arrogance-perception-and-mistakes/#comment-248 Michael, I'd like to think that teachers and students are allies in furthering education. I don't think anybody here has suggested otherwise—maybe that the system is a problem but all of the individual teachers I have interacted with truly care about their students getting the best education possible. Thanks for commenting and listening. Michael, I’d like to think that teachers and students are allies in furthering education. I don’t think anybody here has suggested otherwise—maybe that the system is a problem but all of the individual teachers I have interacted with truly care about their students getting the best education possible.

Thanks for commenting and listening.

]]> By: Michael Baker http://students2oh.org/2007/12/13/arrogance-perception-and-mistakes/#comment-247 Michael Baker Fri, 14 Dec 2007 18:38:08 +0000 http://students2oh.org/2007/12/13/arrogance-perception-and-mistakes/#comment-247 We cannot solve the ills of education by constantly pointing out what is wrong. What we need to hear is how we can work together to build a better learning network. If you want people to ignore what you are saying, keep telling them what they are doing wrong. We need a continuous conversation about how we can work as a team to improve the educational system. How do we make lessons more engaging? What skills are needed in a 21st century world? What technologies can we use to better connect? Make sure you follow your response with an open-mind when people counter with different opinions. Make sure you don’t assume everyone knows the latest technologies. Make sure you don’t assume people are afraid to change. I have met very few lethargic uncaring teachers. If we make this a war, both sides lose. If we make this a team, everyone wins. What can we do to make the system better? We're listening. MB We cannot solve the ills of education by constantly pointing out what is wrong. What we need to hear is how we can work together to build a better learning network. If you want people to ignore what you are saying, keep telling them what they are doing wrong. We need a continuous conversation about how we can work as a team to improve the educational system. How do we make lessons more engaging? What skills are needed in a 21st century world? What technologies can we use to better connect? Make sure you follow your response with an open-mind when people counter with different opinions. Make sure you don’t assume everyone knows the latest technologies. Make sure you don’t assume people are afraid to change. I have met very few lethargic uncaring teachers. If we make this a war, both sides lose. If we make this a team, everyone wins. What can we do to make the system better? We’re listening.

MB

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